The more I think about it, the more I’d be comfortable with naming my son Esav or Yishmael. Now, I recently spoke with a quite a few people about this issue and the answers that I received differed greatly. Some said that they didn’t yet have an opinion on the issue while others didn’t even see what the problem was. Most people, however, responded with a resounding NO. They asked how I could even contemplate doing such a thing to my son and told me that I’d be cursing and decreeing him to a life of torment and distress.
But why must it be that way? Now, I understand that some people have the desire to name their kids after the heavy-hitters, such as Adam, Avraham, Yitzchak, Ya’akov, Yosef (my middle name), Aharon, Moshe, Yehoshua, etc, and that some people choose to name their children after family members (such as my full name, Tzvi Yosef). But I don’t get it – weren’t Esav and Yishmael family also? Why can’t we view them as our non-religious great-uncles?
It's interesting to note that only some names have been affected by this attitude, as there are plenty of infamy tainted names floating around. Take the name Menashe, for example. Menashe, the son of Chizkiyahu, was one of the worst (i.e. evil) kings in Jewish History. Yet, we see Menashes all around. And likewise the name Shabbsai – we see people with the name even though the period of Shabbsai Tzvi, the false messiah, was such a dark one for the Jewish People.
Update (9:35 PM): After reading the comments and thinking about it some more, I feel the need to clarify my views on the matter: Chances are that I will not ending naming my son Esav as there are halakhic problems with giving a child a name that will cause him harm, be it emotional or physical. However, on a theoretical level I think it's fine; practically, though, it could be problematic. All I meant to say in this post is that – in theory – I’m in favor of giving such names, as I don’t feel there is any actual connection between an isolated name and anyone who had the name prior. However, due to the harassment he would receive, I would probably opt to not do so. Thanks for all the comments...
But why must it be that way? Now, I understand that some people have the desire to name their kids after the heavy-hitters, such as Adam, Avraham, Yitzchak, Ya’akov, Yosef (my middle name), Aharon, Moshe, Yehoshua, etc, and that some people choose to name their children after family members (such as my full name, Tzvi Yosef). But I don’t get it – weren’t Esav and Yishmael family also? Why can’t we view them as our non-religious great-uncles?
It's interesting to note that only some names have been affected by this attitude, as there are plenty of infamy tainted names floating around. Take the name Menashe, for example. Menashe, the son of Chizkiyahu, was one of the worst (i.e. evil) kings in Jewish History. Yet, we see Menashes all around. And likewise the name Shabbsai – we see people with the name even though the period of Shabbsai Tzvi, the false messiah, was such a dark one for the Jewish People.
Update (9:35 PM): After reading the comments and thinking about it some more, I feel the need to clarify my views on the matter: Chances are that I will not ending naming my son Esav as there are halakhic problems with giving a child a name that will cause him harm, be it emotional or physical. However, on a theoretical level I think it's fine; practically, though, it could be problematic. All I meant to say in this post is that – in theory – I’m in favor of giving such names, as I don’t feel there is any actual connection between an isolated name and anyone who had the name prior. However, due to the harassment he would receive, I would probably opt to not do so. Thanks for all the comments...
16 comments:
that's a terrible idea. your kid will be mocked and it will destroy his childhood.
It's one thing to name your kid after a non-religious relative. The reason we choose the names we choose, is because we want the child to emulate the person who had that name. Would you want to name your kid after a murderer or rapist? Of course not! Would you ever name your kid after a Palestinian suicide bomber? What's the difference? That is why one should not name their child after Esav. Yishmael, on the other hand,is different. Rashi says at the death of Avraham that Yishmael did teshuva and that is why we see a Rav Yishmael in the Talmud, but Esav? Names aren't just random. They are very important. We pick them after people who want our child to emulate, or because they signify a special quality, not just because it sounds good.
I hope Hashem will give me the correct wording, so I can say this well. Most Poskim would say that one should not name their child Esav. Not because it is Asur, but because one should not put anyone, including his child, into a situation that will cause him pain. If you know that your child will be mocked, you can't do it. Even if you say that you would teach him to be proud of it, can you guarantee that it won't be hard for him? I'm sure that a fifth grader won't be able to realize that he should be proud of it. And even if you say that eventually he will be proud, but that means that for years of his life, when he has enough trouble trying to fit in, you are going to push another test on him? Kids have enough trouble as it is. Could you do that to your child?
As I said, most Poskim would say that one should not do this. Tzvi, I do not intend to take a shot at you with this comment. I just want you to realize that now your thoughts are public. Now, you have a voice that people listen to. Whether it is one person that listens to you or ten or hundred. If you want to talk about improving one's middos, then so be it. But how can you say something that most Poskim would disagree with it? Before writing something like this, it is your responsibility to look into the topic, and make sure what you are saying has halachic proof. This is your job as a blogger. Whether you want to admit it or not, you have a certain power over the way people think. They may agree or argue with you, but you have a certain power over what they think. You have to speak wisely. I know you said that you just want to post your thoughts, but you have to realize that when you make it public, you can't just post your thoughts anymore. You have to be smart with what you post. I don't mean to take a shot at you, just to advise you in the future.
Will somebody please stop this monster? Stop abusing your (future) children!
i like how you have a tag for herber von karajan. just in case you have another post in the works centered around herbert von karajna.
After reading the comments and thinking about it some more, I feel the need to clarify my views on the matter:
Chances are that I will not ending naming my son Esav as there are halakhic problems with giving a child a name that will cause him harm, be it emotional or physical. That's not to say, however, that I think it would be wrong to do so. In fact, on a theoretical level I think it's fine; practically, however, it could be problematic.
Now, this differs from those who say that it’s theoretically problematic and that it’s prohibited to give a child the name of a wicked person. (It’s learned out from a verse in Mishlei (10:7), "Zecher tzadik l'vracha v’shem reshaim yirkav" which means, “the memory of the righteous should be for a blessing, and the names of the wicked should rot.”) The Maharsha (Ta'anis 28a) and Chasam Sofer (YD 2:25) both learn it out this way and in fact pasken that it is prohibited to give one’s child such a name. There’s a midrash (Bereshis Raba 49:1), however, that says that it’s not prohibited as the verse isn’t a command, rather the curse is that people will not be called by such a name. Rashi (Mishlei 10:7) also interprets the pasuk this way, that people will not want to give such names, and therefore the name will rot.
(For anyone who wants to see a halakhic outline of the sugya of naming people after reshaim, please see here: http://dafyomi.shemayisrael.co.il/yoma/halachah/yo-hl-038.htm.)
Anyway, I have trouble accepting the concept that once a name was used by a wicked person, the name is somehow “contaminated.” After all – a name is just a name. See, Tosfos (Yoma 38b) says that one may give the name of a rasha to a child if there had been a tzadik with the same name. This proves, I feel, that a name in itself is not cursed or tainted, rather that people just feel uncomfortable with naming their kids with such names.
To sum up, all I meant to say is that – in theory – I’m in favor of giving such names, as I don’t feel there is any actual connection between an isolated name and anyone who had the name prior. However, due to the harassment he would receive, I would probably opt to not do so.
I like that:
In this post you argue that a theoretical position is worthy of being stated, even if in practicality it will never be applicable.
In the post about land for peace, you argue that the theoretical position is meaningless because practically is will never be applicable.
And in the post between them you pledge to work on hypocrisy. Best of luck!
Ok. No one seems to have said this previously so I will throw my two cents in here. You gave two examples: Menashe and Shabbatai and then gave an example of A singular person in Jewish history who held this name. While it may be the case that those people were reprehensible and one would never want their child to emulate them, they are but just one person.
The name Esav however, is a whole different story. Unlike with the evil king Menashe and the false messiah Shabbatai, Esav is the progenitor of the name, the first in recorded history to have the name Esav. That fact tainted the name from the beginning. Unlike with Menashe or Shabbatai, Esav's very essence is evil. The first Esav was evil...therefore all Esav's after him will be known as evil or cursed or whatever. But there was a shevet Menashe before there was an evil king Menashe.
I think in order to answer your question, you have to look at the origin of the name.
we must unite
Anonymous January 7, 2008 2:15 PM
You raise an interesting question: if one’s deceased father had been a murderer/rapist, could – and should, as people often feel compelled to – one name his own son after the father? The Rambam permits it (I have to find the source). But according to you, who claims that names are symbolic and that they are chosen with the hope that the child will emulate the deceased (or because they signify a special quality), how could the Rambam have done so? How could a person name their child after their criminal father?
To be honest, I really have a hard time buying into the concept that a child’s name somehow affects his personality. I really do. Therefore, why shouldn’t I name my kid Esav (the practical issues aside)? Are you telling me that my son would have savage qualities and criminal urges solely because his name? With all due respect, I think that’s absolutely ridiculous.
And you claim that “we” don’t pick names solely for sounding good. I can think of plenty of people who disagree…
"I hope Hashem will give me the correct wording, so I can say this well."
Anonymous January 7, 2008 3:35 PM
I see that like John Milton - who invokes the aid of the holy spirit at the begininng of Paridise Lost - you call upon Hashem to illumine what is dark in you and that which is low, raise and support.
Your comments are much appreciated. Thank you.
Will somebody please stop this monster? Stop abusing your (future) children!
Anonymous January 7, 2008 8:34 PM
Monster?
Please.
"i like how you have a tag for herber von karajan. just in case you have another post in the works centered around herbert von karajna."
Anonymous January 7, 2008 8:35 PM
You bet.
blogcritic January 7, 2008 9:50 PM
Cute – but not exactly.
In the post about land for peace, I do not argue that the theoretical position is meaningless because practically is will never be applicable. Rather, I argue that the theoretical position has proved itself irrelevant time and time again. But I never said that it is meaningless – to the contrary!
Here, I’m not only saying that the theoretical position is worthy of being stated but also bemoaning the fact that it will never be applicable. It’s unfortunate that a child would be given such a hard time because of a “controversial” name, although admittedly I can understand why.
Very cute, though.
Anonymous January 7, 2008 11:29 PM
You are correct in your distinctions between Menashe and Shabbsai vs. Esav. However, I was bringing these names primarily to show that names, in themselves, do not get "cursed" simply because an evil person had the name at some point or another.
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Sorry.
Anyone read Freakonomics? Theres a story about a guy who names his son Loser, the kid goes on to become a successful businessman, the author proposes that perhaps this young man in his constant struggle to prove himself as not a loser in turn allows his to succeed in life.
Maybe calling your son Esav isnt such a bad idea!?
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